The Wax and Tune Ya Goon Thread

[unsuspected]

Has anyone tried DPS Phantom Waxless Glide? It sells itself as a permanent, no-wax needed solution that permanently bonds to the base. It sounds too good to be true, so does it actually work? And if so, do you still need to wax?

@pow_hnd has on his boards.
Im going to have my Surfer treated because is pita to wax it and maybe my new Buteo.

[pow_hnd]

Has anyone tried DPS Phantom Waxless Glide? It sells itself as a permanent, no-wax needed solution that permanently bonds to the base. It sounds too good to be true, so does it actually work? And if so, do you still need to wax?

Yes, I have it on all my decks. It does work as advertised, especially if you’re someone who doesn’t wax often or at all.

The down side is it’s not cheap, and it’s best to have a DPS dealer do the application with a DPS curing station.

A good friend got it done on one of his decks and was super happy with it and then did all his, his wife’s and kids decks. Said the amount of time he saves is super worth it and the consistent speed for his kids decks helps on cat tracks.

While I do have it on my decks I do like to still wax, although there’s not a necessity to do so anymore, if I get lazy or just don’t have time on back to back to back days of riding, I know my deck stays fast. It’s especially nice on the splitboards, I never wax that now except for storage wax for the summer and now don’t have to worry about getting wax in my skin glue.

I will say there’s a certain hump at my resort where I’m the only one in my group of homies that makes it up and over every time. Not very scientific and very anecdotal, but I used to have to hop or unstrap from time to time for that hump previous to Phantom and have not had to do that once since I went down the Phantom road. The homies notice it also and getting passed on the cat tracks all the time as well.

Mainly these days I wax purely for the fun of it and to play snowboards.

[C.Fuzzy]

Re: base material expanding from heat. The long gone website that dispelled "the myths of pores and waxing" broke down the theory that heat from the iron expands pores to let wax in. First, we know there are no pores, meaning at some point in the past, somebody made that statement with no basis whatsoever. Second, they used material facts, formulas and data to prove that the amount of heat required to "expand" base material from "closed" to "open" (specifically regarding the size of a wax molecule) would have long since vaporized the base. The base melts way before that point. They also used an electromagnetic microscope to show structure, including before and after with heat applied, and couldn't observe expansion there either.

If it doesn't even expand on that microscopic level, how is it going to leave us with something observable to the naked eye? The base only gets a little warm. The "expansion" of metal with temperatures possible from an iron seems even less plausible than with plastic. I heat up various sizes of nuts & bolts on vehicles with a torch all the time, much hotter than an iron, and they don't observably move either. That may not be "scientific," but…

And all this leaves out the thought that tight binding screws pulling on the inserts, in a wood core board, that you apply force to while you ride, could leave divots from said squeezing & pulling effect. That is infinitely more "plausible" to me. Genuinely, who cares if you want to loosen the screws or take the bindings off. Doesn't matter, do whatever you want. I just think this idea seems kinda silly - again, especially when you remember we are talking about tight screws in a wood core board that has increased & variable force applied constantly while riding..... potentially leaving mild divots in the exact direction the binding is pulling on the inserts & core. So it's not caused by that, but instead caused by gentle, occasional warmth "expanding" or pulling on things?

Has anyone ever had an issue resulting from these little divots anyway? Please don't say "it's harder to scrape the wax off"

Idk if this is in response to me per se, but materials expand with heat (pores or no pores, all materials will do the same). Referencing heating up metal such as nuts and bolts with torches, typically done when they're rusted together, is done to cause expansion in the metal which will break that bond of rust to take them apart.

To me it's an application of first principles in material sciences. I suppose, I have no specific idea on the amount of expansion in ptex. Only that it will be different to metal. That metal will stay colder longer and thus pull heat from the base where they touch. So there will be a variance in expansion. Maybe that's the situation or maybe its marginal, but none the less i'm certain it's true to some degree.

I believe tightening or over tightening the inserts and the force of riding can also contribute to the divots. No doubt. But that's not in relation to the process of waxing.

[Spenser]

Not directed at anyone at all, just partaking in the topic. I know why the torch helps break loose stuck fasteners, but I'm talking about it being observable to the eye, like with these divots. Just like we know the reason a bolt gets tight is due to increased friction when the threads pull and stretch against each other on a microscopic level - but it's not observable to the eye (if you could see what's going on inside there, anyway). Further, when you grossly over-torque a fastener and it stretches the threads beyond their elastomeric range, the fastener is now compromised. The amount those threads overstretch/move is more than they stretch when torqued properly, and more than they expand/move when heated, and it's still not visually observable. The point I was making there is if it's not observable to the eye, even with significantly higher heat that causes the fastener to glow red, why does it happen with mild heat on a snowboard? Maybe I'm not thinking of it the right way, but I still just don't buy it. And ultimately it's not causing a problem anyway

Of course I'm aware that heat causes materials to expand, to whatever degree depending on how hot, and what it's applied to. But with massive magnification, they still couldn't observe expansion in base material.

This specific discussion aside, I wish I could access the screenshots I kept of that site. They're on my old hard drive, which doesn't want to wake up.

[Spenser]

Let's talk about the theory behind storage wax. Like waxing with tight binding screws, not once have I had any sort of issue not storage-waxing my boards. They've told us for years your base will dry out, and act like it's damaging. I don't know if I've noticed my bases being any more dry than they were at the end of the season, but I've seen a base that already needed a wax go into storage for years, and come out more dry. However, they come right back to life with one wax, so what's the issue?

Personally, I see it much more as potential for protection during storage, if you're worried about surface scuffs.

I readily admit the pore thing is kind of a pet peeve of mine, although humorous. Just interesting that at some point in the past, somebody made that claim with no basis - and not only did the industry run with it, we added more false information on top of it to explain why the pores do what they do.

[C.Fuzzy]

Not directed at anyone at all, just partaking in the topic. I know why the torch helps break loose stuck fasteners, but I'm talking about it being observable to the eye, like with these divots. Just like we know the reason a bolt gets tight is due to increased friction when the threads pull and stretch against each other on a microscopic level - but it's not observable to the eye (if you could see what's going on inside there, anyway). Further, when you grossly over-torque a fastener and it stretches the threads beyond their elastomeric range, the fastener is now compromised. The amount those threads overstretch/move is more than they stretch when torqued properly, and more than they expand/move when heated, and it's still not visually observable. The point I was making there is if it's not observable to the eye, even with significantly higher heat that causes the fastener to glow red, why does it happen with mild heat on a snowboard? Maybe I'm not thinking of it the right way, but I still just don't buy it. And ultimately it's not causing a problem anyway

Of course I'm aware that heat causes materials to expand, to whatever degree depending on how hot, and what it's applied to. But with massive magnification, they still couldn't observe expansion in base material.

This specific discussion aside, I wish I could access the screenshots I kept of that site. They're on my old hard drive, which doesn't want to wake up.

I understand. You're saying expansion via heat happens but not to a observable degree. And since base dimples are observable, you believe it's more likely being caused flexion of the core (wood) by the force of the bolt pulling.

That could very well be it. To perhaps its flexion to more of a degree than heat expansion of materials.

I'm always careful to no over tighten my screws also, because I don't want to crimp the threads and fuck up an insert. Maybe that's why I don't see that happen and it has nothing to do with my waxing method.

But I know soft plastic expands at lower heat than metal, so in my mind I'm still giving credit to the inserts for acting like a heat sink and not allowing expansion in those specific areas. Imo it observable when waxing that it does occur because the base color / wax color dots where the inserts are.

[casjcade]

I’ve had two issues waxing with bolts on. One was when the bolts were too long and poked out the base a little, that made the base melt more into shape around the bolt. The other was water in between the insert and bolt, that expanded.

Pulled up inserts/dimples and glue around the insert melting is more of a common issue from manufacturing, not sure if having the bolts in when waxing matters there.

[Spenser]

And of course because something isn't observable to the naked eye doesn't mean there's not something going on, I just don't feel like the math adds up here. But that's me & my smooth brain.

Another topic - what do we tighten our binding bolts with? People who use a straight driver give me anxiety. I've used the Burton bullet tool for years, with the little torque handle. Doesn't mean I over-tighten, but you get a more precise sense of how snug things are.

[Spenser]

Imo it observable when waxing that it does occur because the base color / wax color dots where the inserts are.

My response to this is you see it when waxing because the wax fills in the existing divots previously caused by tight bolts pulling on the inserts

[eleveneightnate]

All this talk of base dimples reminds me of the "structurn" base I had on a DC board from like 2012. It was dimpled like a golf ball from the factory. Might've been placebo effect, but the thing was damn fast compared to my friends' boards.

"Structurn™ Base – Just like the dimples of a golf ball break tension and make it fly farther, these small dimples in the base break water tension and allow your board to glide faster, turn easier and allow you to ride on."

structurn-base-finish.jpg (25.79 KiB) Viewed 1248 times