OUTERWEAR

[eleveneightnate]

but I also don’t think there’s a big hole in the market where they were either.

I think L1 kind of filled the gap Holden left a while ago, honestly.

[C.Fuzzy]

but I also don’t think there’s a big hole in the market where they were either.

I think L1 kind of filled the gap Holden left a while ago, honestly.

Most of the L1 things I've seen have been pretty quality. Granted, I've not seen a whole lot. But what I have seen has made me wonder why L1 doesn't get more attention in general.

[AyAyRon]

I guess holden broke up with snowboarding awhile back, but it looks like now Mikey and Scott have both cut ties, and you can't buy anything on their website. wonder if that's the end.

I sure hope so. Who would have guessed that 20k jackets for $950 isn't a successful business model?


Screenshot 2023-05-04 152827.jpg

kinda this.

The idea you can take a mid-tier brand and just make it a high end (luxury-ish) brand by raising the price is just not how it works. They didn't do enough (or anything?) to differentiate and move the brand in the minds of the buyer to justify those costs. Whoever was in control didn't understand, and or didn't listen to those that gave heed to how brand positioning works.

Somebody in charge just thought okay so last year our pants were $190... this year they're $900... so people will just think they're that much better and give me more money!!! I'm a genius!

Also, they made down insulated shorts. I guess for those who want to look like they're wearing a diaper under their snowpants. How that didn't go over idk.

The fact that as a snowboarder and fan of Holden, I was confused about if their brand was even a snowboard brand anymore was all I needed to write it off and move on, and so it seems maybe most others did as well. tbd

Almost every goofy ski outerwear brand makes those dumb down shorts. Holden was making higher end stuff in terms of materials and trendy boxy fits but yeah like you said you can't just decide you're luxury and be successful. Besides sponsoring Freddi K I'm not sure what they had to do with snowboarding the last 5 or more years. He's since moved on to FW (Future Wild) Apparel.

I doubt they sold out of literally everything in every size, that makes no sense. Even 50% off jackets are still 400 hundred plus. It's more likely they are trying to save some brand equity by saying that and hoping to sell the rights to the name or pivot into something else to slowly fail at.

[Spenser]

Older Holden is still some of the best outerwear I've ever used, in particular any of the 20k Japanese fabrics, Kevlar or not. Not sure how you'd pin down when the true "shift" happened, but it was around 10 years ago. They had a great thing going from somewhere around mid 2000s through 2012 or so, IMO. Still have a couple pieces from then (Thunderstorm blue McMillan jacket with the Wittlake bat drawing on the back )

Some good stuff after that period, but things were getting weird.

I bought a 3L kit during their Covid fire sale, and although the material was fine, it was whack for me. Fit, hang, etc..... immediately started a return.

One of my favorite kits I ever had was in 07 - the Berlin pant, with the L1 machine gun etiquette jacket, speaking of L1

2012 evergreen jacket & Millicent pant (20k Kevlar) is still perhaps the best material I've ever used. I wore the shit out of that stuff.

Holden & Airblaster are the only two companies making outerwear that I've ever identified with, or felt connected to, or however you want to word it.

[Spenser]

I virtually never wear this thing, but can't see getting rid of it.

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[C.Fuzzy]

The Holden Standard Pant was one of my favorite fits.

There seems a dichotomy thing in snowsports, especially in snowboarding, between the large amounts of money and upscale lifestyles that surround ski and snowsport activities and the actual culture of the board sport and participants, which seems to be constantly rubbing and pushing back at each other.

Such that it should seem natural that a "luxury fashion" snowboard brand or brands fit in the snowboard space, but time and time again, they seem to get rejected by the actual market. Not for lack of trying. Many times a marketing analysis has shown a hole that should be able to be filled and it flops. Meanwhile, some boarders fill that hole with ski brands.

Does the youth attached to the sports self perception reject the fake cheese and wine image on principle? Is it more palatable to snowboarders to use a ski brand to fill that niche in order to maintain their core sense of being subversive? Such that tarnishing a ski brand with the droves of knuckle draggers is a sly 'fuck you' to skiers? Whereas having a needlessly expensive snowboard brand just for the sake of it would be admitting 'we're just as ego driven as you arrogant two plankers'?

[coleslawed]

i think that last point is spot on.

the existence of Arc’teryx is proof that pricey “higher” end outerwear has a place in snow sports, yet any snowboard-specific brands offering similar price points (but maybe not necessarily the features) don’t seem to last (Cappel, Holden, Homeschool could maybe fit in there).

meanwhile, the younger generation is just fine with fully thrifted kits, be they waterproof or not.

[pow_hnd]

i think that last point is spot on.

the existence of Arc’teryx is proof that pricey “higher” end outerwear has a place in snow sports, yet any snowboard-specific brands offering similar price points (but maybe not necessarily the features) don’t seem to last (Cappel, Holden, Homeschool could maybe fit in there).

meanwhile, the younger generation is just fine with fully thrifted kits, be they waterproof or not.

I’d say AK457 is close to similar as Arc’teryx, or as close as you’re gonna get in a pure snow brand and Burton conceived it to go up against Arc’teryx and other high end brands in the Japanese market. The actual original designers for AK457 were previously Arc’teryx peeps.

[C.Fuzzy]

i think that last point is spot on.

the existence of Arc’teryx is proof that pricey “higher” end outerwear has a place in snow sports, yet any snowboard-specific brands offering similar price points (but maybe not necessarily the features) don’t seem to last (Cappel, Holden, Homeschool could maybe fit in there).

meanwhile, the younger generation is just fine with fully thrifted kits, be they waterproof or not.

I’d say AK457 is close to similar as Arc’teryx, or as close as you’re gonna get in a pure snow brand and Burton conceived it to go up against Arc’teryx and other high end brands in the Japanese market. The actual original designers for AK457 were previously Arc’teryx peeps.

Yes. But made for the Japanese market which likely doesn't have the same sort of built in youth/punk-counter-culture core ethos as the state side market, and so this high end line works because it reinforces their cultural self image.

Alternately, I would venture a healthy guess that B's "durable goods" line was born out of market research and speaks to directly to the US snowboard / youth consumer profile.

I think Jones, with his positioning as THE back country big mountain adventure brand, has an edge on odds that the BC Adventurist market has enough high-income earning dreamers to buy the technical outerwear he's selling. There's not really even a close second in that category. Most brands are "do it all".

Brand positioning is largely 'tell people 'this thing' will make them what they already want to think about themselves'. And imo that's been the hurdle to a successful "high end performance brand" in snowboarding (at least in the US). You can take the snowboarder out of his youth, but you can't take the youth out of snowboarding.

At least not with the traditional approach.

[hey snowboard brands: I'm available for hire ]

[pow_hnd]

I think Jones, with his positioning as THE back country big mountain adventure brand, has an edge on odds that the BC Adventurist market has enough high-income earning dreamers to buy the technical outerwear he's selling. There's not really even a close second in that category. Most brands are "do it all".

Have held the Jones stuff? It has a ways to go before it's as close to being as refined and technical as the AK457 stuff and it doesn't have the AK lifetime warranty...

But yeah, Burton needs to make it more readily available here in the US to compete. Been pretty spotty the last few seasons here in the US.